physical and mental health of its commander in chief. and if blowing off some steam with a couple of bogeys or a beer in the clubhouse keeps him sharper when the red phone rings, we're all better off for it. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being was. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening, from new york. i'm chris hayes. it is good to be back. tonight on "all in" global warming is a complete fraud. it's weird. i just said that. no one stood up and cheered. when republican congressman dana rohrabacher said it at a tea party event other day, the crowd went wild. why climate denialism and global government conspiracy is a fan favorite of the right wing base. plus, pouring smirnoff vodka into the streets. international outrage over

anti-gay raws in russia is justifiably growing. how much is at stake coming. we begin with 30 years of tough on policies and laws starting to unrival. sea change movement for criminal justice and race. today speaking to the american bar association, attorney general eric holder announced in low-level non-violent drug cases federal prosecutors will be instructed to leave out the amount of an illegal substance in their criminal complaint in order to avoid triggering federal mandatory minimums. a move that could be the start of a truly seismic shift in federal drug policy. in new york, a landmark decision on the stop and frisk practice of the nypd. this morning the federal district judge found nypd stop and frisk program violates the constitutional rights of people of color in new york. writing that "the nypd carries out more stops where there are more black and hispanic resident s when other relevant variables are held. the census track predicts the

stop rate above and beyond the crime rate. the city, through the nypd, has a policy of incorrect racial profiling." the judge also took aim straight at new york city officials for their rabid defense of the program, saying, "the city's highest officials have turned a blind eye to the evidence that officers are conducting stops in a racially discriminatory manner. they have willfully ignored overwhelming proof that the policy of targeting, quote, the right people, is racially discriminatory and, therefore, violates the united states constitution. this indifference was further demonstrated by many officials' apparent belief that racial profiling is a myth created by the media." that scathing indictment of the new york city leadership prompted, perhaps not surprisingly, an extremely defensive response from new york city mayor michael bloomberg and new york city police commissioner, ray kelly. >> our police officers follow the law and follow the crime. they don't worry if their work doesn't match up to a census chart.

let's be clear. people have a right to walk down the street without being targeted by the police, but people also have a right to walk down the street without being killed or mugged. >> what i find the most disturbing and offensive about this decision is the notion that the nypd engages in racial profiling. that simply is recklessly untrue. >> i don't think there's any question that one of the problems we have in our society, today, is that victims and perpetrators of crime are disproportionally young minority men. that's just a fact. >> new york city and its police department have focused their crime fighting efforts to protect the poorest members of our community who are disproportionately the victims of murder and other violent crime. >> i worry for my kids, and i worry for your kids. i worry for you and i worry for me.

crime can come back any time the criminals think that they're going to get away with things. just cannot let that happen. >> we invited both mayor bloomberg and commissioner kelly or one of their representatives to come on the show tonight. they declined the offer. i look forward to being able to discuss stop and frisk with them on air in the future. joining me now is new york city councilman peter villone, a democrat, chair of the public safety committee and u someone who has defended stop and frisk policy. so the judge today did something that was different than the debate we tend to have in politics. the judge basically said, i am not here to talk about the effectiveness of the policy. i'm here to talk about the constitutionality. what is your reaction to the judge's ruling today? >> the judge appointed a monitor. i can't think of a police tee apartment that needs a monitor less than the nypd. we're the most diverse, the best trained, most effective police force in the country. if you want to look at a monitor, let's put one in chicago, in detroit. if we had detroit's murder rate, we'd have 4,000 extra people killed last year. >> you're doing the things that defenders of stop and risk always do.

>> it's effective. >> to talk about the effectiveness. one is we have seen declines in the murder rate across cities, across the country. san diego, new orleans, los angeles. in some cities bigger than new york. second of all, we've seen a decline in the murder rate that dropped off the cliff in the ten years before bloomberg more than has it has dropped since mayor bloomberg. third of all, what is your story for the causal connection between stop and frisk and the decline in the murder rate? >> well, i have law enforcement experience. i'm a public safety expert, so to speak. and there aren't many people in law enforcement who will tell you that stop and frisk is not a very, very effective tool. and what this judge said today, by the way, was not that stop and frisk is unconstitutional at all. she actually said, i'm not calling for an end to stop and frisk, i'm not looking for the nypd to go back to less effective methods. we all agree. stop and frisk needs to be monitored, done constitutionally.

>> you don't think it needs to be. monitors -- >> i didn't say that. there are ten monitors on the nypd, more than any other police department including my committee. five district attorneys, two u.s. attorneys, mayor's commissioner to combat -- criminal affairs, criminal ccrb. >> what would convince you as an advocate of the policy, what would convince you this was being done in a racially discriminatory way? >> like the mayor said today, if these numbers did not match crime statistics, almost exactly, that would convince me. they do match crime statistics. what people want, what you're arguing for here is for a quota system. we should stop today because we didn't stop enough. >> no, it's opposite. >> if you stop people based on a census, women would have to be stopped 50% of the time. women are not the people shooting people. >> right. the argument always made is that the people stopped are the people who are disproportionately committing crime, that there's a rough match between these demographically, right? >> it's not an argument, it's true. >> that may be true, but first

of all, the vast majority being stopped turn up nothing, right? we actually have to talk about individuals, especially individuals. the constitution, the fourth amendment protection of the constitution is a protection against unreasonable search and seizure, right? that applies not because you fit some demographic profile that's broadly -- >> you're absolutely right. >> it has to do with -- >> i wrote the law in new york city. you cannot stop people based on race. is that happening? occasionally? absolutely. there are some bad cops. we know that. cops are trying it and doing it wrong. >> the overwhelming majority. >> 88%. if you're in law enforcement, that's a number that's to be expected. 50% of these are just stopping questions. why are you by this at tm at 2:00 in the morning? that's a stop and question. 20 pk of them are based on descriptions. if somebody robs someone and within the next five minutes the cops come and stop 20 people who look exactly like that person, 19 of them are innocent people. >> 88%, the fascinating thing, actually, if you do a racial

breakdown, right, the stop and frisk of white people turn up more criminal activity as a percentage than of black and latinos. that's true. that's what the numbers indicate. >> what number -- >> right, because very few white people are stopped and frisked which is precisely the problem, right? >> white people are doing the shootings, chris, do you want them to stop people based on quotas or stop people they reasonably suspect of having guns or committing a crime? >> reasonably suspect. right? the question is, how do you attach reasonable suspicion under the context? we have first-person testimony from people who walk the streets of new york who are caught up in being stopped and frisked in a way they think violates that prohibition on unreasonable stop and seizure. the question is, what would convince you that that was happening? my question to you, what would be a threshold? if 98% of people were turning up nothing. >> if the 97% of the people doing the shootings were black and latino, and 97% of the people in these crimes weren't 97% black and latino, i'd be concerned about these numbers.

but they match exactly. the criminals match the people who are stopped exactly. >> in the broad demographic sense, that may be true. is there a way to make this work under the supervision? i mean, if the point is that there's a huge amount of space between what is being done now and what is constitutionally permissible, effective in your estimation, then can we get somewhere in between those two? >> that's a very good question. stop and frisk is constitutional. you can't tell a cop, look, don't act on your training. wait until the shooting happens. that would be wrong. what we need to do is constantly monitor. we know there are bad cops. we know people with making bad stops. i wrote the racial profiling law. we've lowered the amount of stops based on our advocacy from 600 to 400 because many people -- >> 1,000. >> 600,000 to 400,000. absolutely. because many people thought the stop rate was way too high. >> that gets exactly to where -- a good place to lead this.

we've seen stop and frisk, stops come down by 600,000, 400,000, in the same year we're seeing a projection for record low murder rates. just the basic correlative argument made by advocates of this policy, the more stop and frisk, lower the murder rate gets, we're seeing belied by the data. i appreciate you coming on to defend the program today. i wish the mayor and ray kelly would have been sitting next to you. new york city councilman, peter vallone. joining me, talib kweli, who sat in the dream defender sit-in in florida. and phillip agnew, executive director of them still sitting in the capitol down there. have you experienced firsthand stop and frisk? >> all over the world. new york city, japan, last month. i had police stop me. it's hard for people who don't go through it and don't live in neighborhoods where it's happening to understand how degrading it feels. i mean, if we're talking on a constitutional level, you know, we have certain rights and what they're telling people by

accepting stop and frisk as a policy, you're telling people because you live in a poor neighborhood, it's your fault and you deserve to be criminalized. that's not constitutional, it's not fair. >> phil, it's interesting to me, the judge cited the trayvon martin case numerous times in the opinion, in the 200-page opinion issued today. racial profiling and legal redress for racial profiling is one of the issues you're occupying the capitol over. do you think there's a connection between what we saw in the trayvon martin's death and the trial afterwards and the decision out of new york today? >> i think what brother talib said is correct. i think young people of color experience racial profiling in new york and in chicago. just recently here in miami, a young man, israel hernandez, was tased to death for tagging an abandoned mcdonald's in miami. i think it's a problem we see everywhere. as the brother said, it is hard to understand racial profiling if you haven't been the victim of it, and i think the -- the

policing methods that we've been using need improvement and there needs to be greater monitoring by communities over their police departments. >> what do you say to the argument we heard from councilman vallone and hear from a lot of folks, this is ultimately done for the protection of black and brown men of color who are the most likely to be victims of crime. >> well, you know, the key is to -- you don't want to -- you want police to have good relationships with the community. that's the only way that you're going to move forward. look, if i walk into the atm at 2:00 in the morning and a cop who i know i've had negative experience police starts aggressively asking me questions and i know i haven't done anything wrong and might escalate into something. it creates an environment for violence. this, us being against stop and frisk, being against zero tolerance laws like that is not a police thing at all. we love the people in our community. we want to see better police, community policing, better monitoring. if you continue to unconstitutionally criminalize a

generation of people, it will become at the police and that's no good for anybody. >> phillip, you are, i believe it's day 28 of the occupation in the statehouse, if i'm correct. you've gotten some petitions to have a poll of the state legislators about calling a special session for trayvon's law. do you think we're at a sea change moment in the politics of this issue which have so dominated the way we think about crime and policing and people of color for 30 years? are we at a breaking point right now? >> i think we could be. i think with the publishing of michelle alexander's book, "the new jim crow" and the number of studies against the war on drugs, we've seen that the way america has continued to police communities, and the way that america and the police forces around the country have continued to watch over and dragnet communities, hasn't been the most effective. what we've seen is a strong profit motive behind that, so i do think attorney general holder's announcement today around mandatory minimums, i do

think this announcement today around stop and frisk could be an indicator that when people apply pressure, especially here in florida, it's needed in a number of ways, that there can be some change on a lot of these issues, and i hope it is a positive thing. we've got a long way to go. our young people have got to stand up and really take accountability for how they're policed and how they're criminalized. i think we will move the bar forward as many, or as more information comes up and as attorney general and presidents begin to speak out against what we felt for years. >> rapper talib kweli and phillip agnew from dream defenders. coming up, an amazing video of a u.s. congressman doing an impersonation of arnold schwarzenegger and denying global warming because it's a huge liberal conspiracy to take control of everyone and everything. it's completely hilarious except that it's basically everything that's wrong with our politics. stay tuned.

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kentucky fried chicken, shanita simon, came on this show last month. she said this -- >> at the end of the day, it's either i get my education or i feed my kids. you know, things like i have to, you know, decide to buy lunch or do i pay rent? >> shanita is part of a growing national movement of workers striking for a living wage. while there are lots of numbers to tell us millions of americans are struggling to make ends meet, statistics are faceless. we need to hear from you. please, tell us. you can write your story, like shanita did, or submit your experience through photos, videos and tweets. for details and guidelines, visit us at allinwithchris.com and get the maximum wage conversation going. we'll be right back. you make a great team. it's been that way since the day you met. but your erectile dysfunction - it could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your ability to be ready. and the same cialis is the only daily ed tablet approved to treat ed and symptoms of bph like needing to go frequently or urgently.

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remember i endorsed arnold which was my big mistake, but in the twinning it looked like he was going to be a good governor, but then he gave into this global warming stuff. i'll never forget it. he came to see the california delegation, and i'm sitting there and arnold's walking by me and i said, arnold, arnold, did you hear, did you hear about the melting icecaps? and the retreating icecaps? why, dana, yes, i know an the icecaps all right. i'm very surprised that you know about the icecaps melting and retrieving. and i said, i said, arnold, i'm talking about the icecaps on mars. oh. bam. he's gone. >> that was republican congressman dana rohrbacker of california in a speech that

serves as a perfect artifact of the biggest obstacle of the u.s. getting climate policy right. at the base of one of our two main parties. 100% committed to denying that climate change is even a thing that requires policy. seriously, that is the number one barrier to get anything done on climate in this country because when it comes down to it, let me tell you something. even the fossil fuel companies, as powerful and destructive as they are, could probably in the end just be paid off, fought off, for the right price. but the fear of a tea party primary challenge is endemic in republican party right now. and it's making meaningful climate policy, among other things, completely unachievable in washington. so what they're seeing in this room at the newport mesa tea party patriot's monthly meeting is the future of the earth in peril. in this room, this right here is the belly of the beast. >> what a horrible thing to be attacked by barbara boxer, and

she was noting that there are fires in our country and in our state, and they're due to global warming. and the people should understand that they've got nitwits like congressman rohrabacher who don't even believe that mankind is causing the climate change. and, so -- >> that is what happens when you just so much as bring up the topic of global warming in a room full of tea party conservatives. just the idea that someone like democratic senator barbara boxer might attribute to the growing severity of california's wildfires to climate change was met with laughter and jeers and applause. congressman rohrabacher's own proud climate change denialism is the big applause line. because if you're a republican, climate change denialism is a quick and easy way to demonstrate your conservative authenticity. it has a visceral resonance as a cultural war issue. it's not a big policy plank.

it's liberals are lying to you about this. it's in their gut. >> just so you'll know, global warming is a total fraud. the federal government want to create global government to control all of our lives. that's what their game plan is. it's step by step by step more and bigger control over our lives by higher levels of government. and global warming is simply that strategy in spades. >> now, the whole global warming is a liberal conspiracy line is understandably a big hit among the conservative base, but in delivering that line, congressman rohrabacher tips his hand which goes like this. if global warming is real, then the government would need to intervene to fix it, but we don't like government intervention. therefore, global warming cannot be real. that's it. that is the logic behind the pervasive view on climate change on the right. we don't like the solutions to

this problem, so we officially declare this not to be a problem. joining me, sam thernstrom who served with president george w. bush. executive director of the energy innovate reform project. and sam, my first question is, how do we get over this? this is my big -- i realize that i can't be the person that breaks the ice here, that figures out the way to make this dialogue not be as toxic and terrible and self-destructive as it is. how do we get out of this dead end? >> well, actually, chris, we can start right here. you can help. you can't do it yourself, but you can help. we can start by actually breaking down the assumptions in your setup just now which was the idea which is perpetuated by a lot of environmental activists that if you accept the basic science of climate change then you must accept the entire democratic or environmental agenda on climate policy. my experience is talking to

others, they know they object to the policy measures that democrats propose, and so that stiffens their resistance on climate. if we have a constructive conversation about the policy options that conservatives could support, we might have a different conversation about the science, itself. >> so, okay, you're agreeing with me that the reasoning is a sort of reverse engineering reasoning, which i understand. liberals do that, too, sometimes with certain things and that's a basic reaction we have as people with a set of priors, with a world view, right? so my question is, what are the acceptable -- what is the right way to go about reverse engineering, a productive conversation, if we can't talk about any of the possible interventions that might deal with the problem? >> well, you're wrong. we can talk about interventions that would deal with the problem. we just don't have to put climate front and center in it and don't have to talk about it as if the only way to engage with it is limiting emissions as the president has proposed through epa regulations, or as congress has proposed through a cap and trade system.

we can focus on the core reality of the climate change problem which is an innovation issue that low carbon and zero carbon sources of energy are much more expensive than carbon intensive forms of energy. so we can work together on the innovation question, which is how do we actually make low and zero carbon energy sources price and performance competitive with carbon intensive forms of energy? >> so i really like that idea, right? there's a whole bunch of -- there was this universe of conservative monks, greg mankiw is one of them who talk about a carbon tax as a way of essentially keeping the government out of this but pricing in what they call the externalities, external cost of carbon. they like free markets, they like innovation. that's cool. the problem is that idea has zero traction with the conservative base. it's a thing people talk about in think tanks, no offense, of

course. i just don't see any blood in that at the conservative base level. >> absolutely, chris. i agree completely. although i'm a fan of market mechanisms, i'm a critic of the carbon tax. i don't think there's a politically feasible path forward. the point is instead of trying to make carbon intensive forms of energy more expensive, we should be working to make low and zero carbon forms of energy cheaper. >> okay. >> that is -- >> i like that idea, but when you do that, and you have a loan guarantee program for a solar company called solyndra, that becomes the biggest example of corruption, the biggest part of government subsidizing industry, corporate welfare, cronyism, et cetera. they are exactly the thing the right wing hates. >> right, because all of the options that come forward are all big government liberal ideas about how we go about doing this. our options to drive energy

innovation are not only government loan guarantees and the government reaching far forward into the commercialization process. instead we could have the government work in cooperation with the private sector on public/private research and development initiatives that don't pick winners but work rather on the fundamental technological barriers to innovation. >> aren't we going that on battery stuff, the energy department? >> we're doing some of that but could be doing a much better job. the energy department, itself, is not well organized to do this work. the secretary as recognized that and has begun a reform agenda at d.o.e. we should be focusing on things like that. make d.o.e. an effective agency. then we wouldn't need to argue about how much funding for it and whether or not solyndra is a good idea or not. >> i love innovation, and i'm you on that. i really want to believe sincerely if we shifted the conversation in this direction, we would see a visceral cultural change. i continue to be slightly -- i enjoyed talking to you.

thank you for coming on. sam thernstrom. thank you. my documentary "the politics of power" airs right here on friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. are you one of the millions of americans anxiously tuning into the final season of "breaking bad"? the guys from "myth busters" will talk about taking on some of the things that happened in "breaking bad" to see if they could happen in real life. we'll be right back.

the "breaking bad" final

season premiere was last night. if your facebook or twitter feed was anything like mine, there was a period where it seemed that "breaking bad" was the only thing that was going on in the entire world. for those who haven't watched the show, it's the chronicle of a cancer stricken chemistry teacher who starts cooking crystal meth turning his vocation into a full scale murderous mini empire. tonight, "myth busters" will tackle two big events in the "breaking bad" lore like the time walt used mercury fulminate as an explosive. >> this is not meth. >> hey. what is it?

>> fulminated mercury. a little tweak of chemistry. >> "myth busters" crew whips up its own fulminated mercury from scratch, turns into a powder, not a crystal. they take that fulminated mercury and successfully blow up a pumpkin. that's just the beginning. in their quest to reproduce the full-blown explosion. then there's the infamous "breaking bad" bathtub episode in which hydrochloric acid eats through the tub, the floor and the ceiling after having dissolved a human body. "myth busters" are on that one, too. joining me now, jamie hyneman and adam savage. okay, how did this come about? >> this came about because vince gilligan, the creator and show runner of "breaking bad" was doing an interview last year. they asked him as a fan of lots of other tv shows, is there one in particular that he would want to do a crossover show with, and he said "myth busters" and we had had a the "breaking bad" -- we had this episode on our books for a long time and it was just

-- we had to bring them together. >> it's funny because i've often wondered how much they, like, if they have a chemistry consultant an the show or how much they are thinking about particularly in the earlier seasons how much they're thinking about whether the chemistry that they're putting on the show is actually true. do you guys have a judgment to render on how fictional this is? >> well, they did get the fact that the acid they chose to dispose of a body in a bathtub was very dangerous. they did not get the fact right about -- >> the way in which it's dangerous. >> why it's dangerous. >> yeah, that's something that keeps happening. it's like all these bodies keep getting dissolved. i keep thinking if it were that easy, wouldn't other real life criminals have, like, figured this out already and there would

be no bodies buried anywhere? >> you'll see on tonight's show that in order to do it, the collateral damage is quite large. "breaking bad" had a chemical specialist on the show since its inception. vince, actually, he is a geek at heart, so he really has tried to get the science of the show right. and there are times when they get close, but, you know, not quite perfect. >> well, there's also a certain amount of fictional license that you have to take because sometimes you need a big explosion that comes out of only a ziploc pouch, rather than something of quantity trucked in. >> that's something he says repeatedly on the show tonight. artistic license. >> one of the things i think is fascinating about this show is it illuminates the fact that this industry, which has exploded in the u.s., is based on a lot of people doing essentially amateur chemistry, that in trailers and in apartments and in houses across the country, there are folks who are essentially self-taught who have used the internet trying in trial by error to do sophisticated, complicated

criminal procedures to produce this quite lucrative substance at the end, and there's almost something admirably dyi about it, even if the product, itself, of course, is toxic and often destructive and terrible in people's lives. >> yeah. i mean, "breaking bad," itself, is, you know, it shows -- it's a lot of fun to watch this show, but the consequences in the real world are just horrific from that kind of activity. >> and we love walter white. obviously on "myth busters" we use tools and materials for purposes for which they were never originally intended and walt is using his skills for purposes for which they were never intended. so we love that, but on the spectrum of diy, i have to say i think this is way at the bottom end of acceptable. >> oh, yes. i would completely agree with that. i have you guys on the show, i have to ask you this. what is the budget of your show? sometimes it seems like it must be billions of dollars.

you're blowing certain things up and i'm sitting there thinking, how do you figure out how to do what you have to do within the confines of whatever spreadsheet is on some executive's computer somewhere? >> well, you know, we blow up a lot of cars. we've even blown up full-sized airliners. but the thing is, we get them when they're about ready to be recycled, and so we just sort of speed the process up a little bit. >> also, we've discovered that when you work with bomb squads, they're very much like jamie and i, work on contingency basis and always trying to plan for the worst-case scenario. as such, they love working with us because everything we do, which is weird, is a great training exercise for them. so pretty much every bomb squad we've worked with has donated their materials to our explosions. and as a consequence, many of them have experiences that most of the bomb squads don't get. >> i've just figured out the "myth busters" cost cutting hack. jamie hyneman and adam savage, of "myth busters."

thanks a lot, guys. >> thanks for having us. >> we'll be right back with #click3. know where flo is? are you flo? yes. is this the thing you gave my husband? well, yeah, yes. the "name your price" tool. you tell us the price you want to pay, and we give you a range of options to choose from. careful, though -- that kind of power can go to your head. that explains a lot. yo, buddy! i got this. gimme one, gimme one, gimme one! the power of the "name your price" tool. only from progressive.

if you're gay and live in russia, things are bad for you now because the new law aimed at gay, quote, propaganda. will pressuring russia with a threat of an olympic boycott end up hurting the people it's supposed to help? first i want to share the three awesomest things on the internet today. we begin with electioneering candid camera style. norwegian prime minister yens stoltenberg tried to boost his standing with voters by taking the wheel of a taxi. unsuspecting norwegians were picked up by the guy running their country and he was trapped long enough for them to talk to him. another told him he was not a great driver. as far as currying favor with the voting public, it's not as good a trick as giving them money in the cat cab. not something you could imagine happening in a u.s. presidential race any time soon.

the second awesomest thing today, the tears of a clown and gasps of the audience. the first thing you think about is a misguided and tone deaf fashion an the holocaust, jerry lewis' never released disastrous film "the day the crown cried." we settled on fleeting glimpses of this misfire. >> everyone on the show has always obsessed about the fact we want to see jerry lewis' movie. jerry decided somehow to make a movie where he plays a concentration camp clown. >> now, several minutes of footage have been unearthed and posted on youtube. the clips come from a television show and give a taste of the jaw-dropping finnish product. it begs to be repeated, it's a movie about a clown working with nazi war criminals. this movie is so drastically wrong, it's pathos and comedy

are so misplaced. oh my god, as all you can say. while we can still be envious of henry scherer for getting to see the whole thing, this footage gives all fans of bad movies a chance to dream. third awesomest thing on the internet, an artist gets the monkey off her back. brought to life by this woman, 83-year-old cecilia jimenez. the painting of jesus christ became an internet sensation, with imitations of the last supper. and tributes on "saturday night live." to this genius halloween costume. the bcc is reporting jimenez will show off 28 of her own paintings at an expedition this week. she had to take to bed after suffering a panic attack as a result of the criticism of her newfound notoriety.

we're glad cecilia weathered the storm and is being celebrated for her creativity. find all the thinks for tonight's #click3 on our website, allinwithchris.com. my mantra? trust your instincts to make the call. to treat my low testosterone, my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant

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if it takes me getting arrested for people to pay attention and for people to lobby against this law, then i'm willing to take it. >> that was olympic figure skater johnny weir speaking

about the upcoming winter games in sochi russia. who is openly gay is hoping to nab a spot on the u.s. team. a growing concern over a new and vaguely worded russian law aimed at banning gay propaganda. with the games six months away, international fire storm is brewing over russia's crackdown on gay rights. president obama has spoken out against the law twice noting while he finds the law offensive, he rejects the idea of an outright olympic boycott. >> i want to just make very clear right now i do not think it's appropriate to boycott the olympics. we've got a bunch of americans out there who are training hard who are doing everything they can to succeed. >> the law passed unanimously in june is supported by an overwhelming majority of russians. russian president vladimir putin publicly defended the law earlier this summer. this is not about imposing any kind of sanctions against homosexuality, he said, this is

about protecting children. many in the u.s. beg to differ on that assessment. one, a vodka boycott that picked up all kinds of traction on twitter after gay rights advocate dan savage encouraged others to dump stoli, though it's produced in latvia. the other campaign applying pressure on the international olympic committee is looking to be more effective. on friday, ioc president said he received written assurances on the matter adding, there are still uncertainties and we decided to ask for clarification. a senior member of the ico pointed to his comments. told reporters that russia must fully understand the human rights of athletes. the "associated press" reports, when asked if the games could be taken away from sochi if the response does not satisfy the ioc, wu said the russian authorities know how serious the ioc is, we are not joking. joining me now, richard, a gay

rights advocate. gigi fernandez, member of the international tennis hall of fame, who's the director of tennis at chelsea piers in connecticut. and julia. richard, i keep thinking this issue is going to peter out. at first when it first kind of crossed my awareness, i just figured, you know, every country that hosts the olympics has some problems. it's not going away. >> no, it, in fact, i think it's a huge story. i think it will probably be the biggest international global gay rights story ever in history because gay rights are gaining steam here in the west, but everywhere, you know, we're sending a message with the supreme court decision just recently. so it's going to be a big story. it's not really just about this propaganda law. it's not really about the olympics fundamentally. fundamentally it's about a country that has chosen to

stigmatize and allow its citizens, other citizens to target gay people for violence and even death. >> julia, could you give some context here? if you're kind of a chart of what it's like to be gay in russia, is there some inflection point in the last year, six months, where it gets much worse? my sense from the reporting i've been reading is that the answer to that is yes, but i'm curious what you think. >> it's gotten worse, but before that, it was getting better. you know, among the islands of intolerance and violence, there are also islands of tolerance and acceptance. that's how it happens in every country. you know, when you know that your brother is gay or a friend of yours is gay and you know

they're quote/unquote, normal, it becomes a lot harder to stigmatize and entire type of people. >> what is driving this -- what is driving this current sort of political attack? >> i think it's a search for a

would the olympics be in saudi arabia, in palestine, in pyongyang, north korea, on mars, i would go, because that's what i'm trained to do and devoted my life to. >> that was johnny weir talking about the games in sochi, russia.

gigi, do you basically feel that way as an athlete? i've been saying a lot of people say, look, this idea of boycotting the games is crazy and misguided. the idea of the spirit of the games is to cross these boundaries and for athletes to go and compete and perform. >> absolutely. i've never been a proponent of mixing politics with sports. we as athletes are trained to do sports. there are so many athletes that this is their one moment. you know, tennis players, we're lucky because we have four grand slams. there are lots of athletes who train four years for the one olympics. many, many athletes were hurt in 1980 when we boycotted in russia. it sends the wrong message. it hurts a lot of people. i'm not a proponent of it. >> this is really an issue of basic human rights and fundamental freedoms and people's safety. i think there will be a lot of pressure. >> explain. why do you say that? >> gays and lesbians are targeted, beaten, abused, being even murdered because of the

environment putin has created. there will be a lot of pressure. i think saying we shouldn't boycott serves a lot of western interest. we all want our athletes to go and succeed. maybe we should move the games. the ioc has a rule you can't discriminate. they've been asleep at the switch. maybe they should move the games. sponsors will be under pressure to cancel their sponsorship. a lot of things -- >> you can't move the games six months before they start. that would be like having the world series, the super bowl and world cup organizing them in seven months and having them run for 14 consecutive days. >> you can't have the exact same games somewhere else but could move a cut rate version in norway. >> you could move them. >> we're talking about people's safety and human rights. these are not -- >> it also doesn't help russia. it doesn't help russian gays. >> yes, make that point. >> sorry for jumping in. >> you know, we're -- i think that -- ioc to protect the

athletes. athletes have to be protected. a boycott is not going to help. >> let me distinguish two things. there is concern about actual gay athletes in russia during the olympics being arrested for the law. in fact, the sports minister said, of course, if they violate this law, if they propagandize, then they would be subject to law. >> or even if they wear a -- >> julia, you made a point that i think is very important. what did you just say about whether this would help lgbt citizens of russia? >> it may protect athletes competing in sochi but in no way protects russian lgbt people from being abused, harassed, fired from their jobs, et cetera. if anything, it might make it worse. hold on, hold on. >> finish that point. >> hold on. what i wanted to say is that this is already -- homosexuality in russia is already seen as a western import. it's seen -- it's seen through the lens of an international imposing its will on russia and

selling this kind of pure christian state. and what russia is seeing now is an international trying to impose its will on russia. again, this is how it's seen in russia. i don't agree with that. in some ways it reinforces the notion this is a russian thing, not an indigenous western thing and if it weren't for the west, there wouldn't be any gay people in russia. >> the u.s. embargo, because it made fidel castro's story about everything that was keeping cuba down was in fact the u.s.' hatred, plausible. what do you say to that? this will backfire. this actually hurt -- >> it's not, you know, there are limited options, but we have important interests here to protect because human rights in russia are being violated. this is a big issue for gays and lesbians in russia. this is not about the olympics, not about the safety of athletes. it's about people being targeted and killed in russia. what are we going to do as an international community to stand up for it?